A surviving Western Empire which had reintegrated with the Eastern Empire might well hold vastly disproportionate influence over human affairs everywhere. It's a system where anyone can become an official, or even emperor. See also. : Part 2 (2013) Company Credits. Only soldiers are allowed to keep their jobs as long as they are performing well, but no general can become Emperor. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. What if the Ottoman Empire survived world war one WW1? And if reform included the chance to become a senator or any official on personal merits, not just for being one of the landed classes. Preferably, they could discover new sources that exist in central Europe or sub-Saharan Africa, or by voyaging to Mesoamerica where silver and gold is plentiful and fairly easy to reach. What if the Roman Empire never fell and the Caesar ruled London? Essential items such as weapons, clothing, and food became part of soldiers pay, and much trade took place without currency. W... hat if the Celtic thrones fought to survive beyond its walls? This isn't necessarily for everyone's benefit. "Alternate History Hub" What If the Roman Empire Never Fell? The solution was Diocletian's, © 2016 by Jerry Glover. Fandom Apps Take your favorite fandoms with you and never miss a beat. The solution was Diocletian's Tetrarchic system from 293, quartering the empire, each part ruled by a sovereign emperor. The periods of service are fixed, like the President of the United States, so no office gets too much influence over the rest. 6:15. From the end of the 2nd century levels of trade and prosperity fell, never again achieving the levels of the early Principate. Be the first to contribute! They did something similar to the Danes, and they had a much better chance of keeping S-H. Given all that, it'd be a phenomenal situation if Rome never fell. The periods of service are fixed, like the President of the United States, so no office gets too much influence over the rest. The Swedish, somehow make it's way to the modern day with no territorial changes apart from some land on the Polish and German coast. It looks like we don't have any Crazy Credits for this title yet. For a Western Roman Empire still in existence today would have to be so different from the reality of what made it the Roman Empire that we could hardly call it that at all! The averted Plague of Justinian allows the Eastern Empire to populate faster by a factor of two. For a Western Roman Empire still in existence today would have to be so different from the reality of what made it the Roman Empire that we could hardly call it that at all! Yet still oligarchal and Roman enough to preserve the ideals that work so well in the empire's favour – conquest, assimilation, expansion. From one trade caravan on the Silk Road plague reaches Europe and then a ship bound for Mesoamerica. The Fel Empire, also called the Galactic Empire, Reborn Empire, Fel Imperium, New Empire or the New Order, was the name given to the restored Galactic Empire some time after 44 ABY following the ascension of Jagged Fel to the throne. Be the first to contribute! Grain ships carrying bubonic plague from Egypt sink in a storm before reaching Constantinople. ... Lol, not trying to r/whooosh here but they actually are officially still called "the Swedish Empire;" I know because my Bismarck T-shirt shipped from, according to DHL, the "SWEDISH EMPIRE… The Industrial Revolution could have started a thousand years earlier, and would have marked the beginning of the end of the slave system. One response was to debase the currency. 'Never' is the key idea here. An interview in which I outline ideas about the continuation of the Roman empire beyond the 5th century, up to the dawn of the Renaissance. He retakes Sicily, gradually reverses the Vandal usurpation of North Africa. A search for books on the subject yielded Charles XII and the Collapse of the Swedish Empire 1682-1719 by Robert Nisbet Bain. It would encompass, and indeed define, most if not the whole of Europe, as well as other parts of the world. Instead, they muster their advantage in technology and international connections to cajole the Mayans into a trade alliance to develop their civilization – exchange steel, machinery, and urban planning for Mayan gold and hardwoods. Four years later Rome loses control of Jerusalem. Intelligence and capability also have to carry real political influence, basically an oligarchy of technocrats. Russia tries to retake Finland, and with Swedish help take a large chunk of Finnish land but not being able to capitulate them. It looks like we don't have any Plot Keywords for this title yet. The Byzantine Empire (Greek: Βασιλεία Ῥωμαίων) is a country situated between the Balkans and Asia Minor. For one, Rome would need the resources to defend the Middle East, which supposing they still have western Europe and north Africa, and are investing deeply into gaining a foothold in Mesoamerica as I envisage, it is still questionable unless they can make up with the Sassanians. "Alternate History Hub" What If the Roman Empire Never Fell? The expensive civil wars that contributed to the collapse could be averted if Rome had reformed the system by which the emperor was selected after the 3rd century when the senatorial class was marginalised and any connection with the imperial family was sufficient to make a claim. If Valens had kept his head, who knows? Almost all emperors after that time were army officers or imperial officials (stratocracy). The Modern day is almost Identical as in OTL apart from a much larger Sweden, and a Much larger Finland, as the USSR still collapses and, as it was annexed, was joined with the karelian SFSR. From the mid 3rd century emperors also wasted time with matters that previously were dealt with by an imperial legate. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Finances rebalanced, imperial wealth starts to surge. What if the Ottoman Empire never fell? In the 600s the new religion of Islam gallops out of Arabia, and Muslim armies began a war against both the Romans and the Sassanians, already fighting since the 200s. With diplomatic outposts established in Mayan cities, Roman legions, consisting of Mayan warriors too, march to the gold regions of Peru and California, returning to Rome with spoils that make the treasure of the Temple of Jerusalem look like a prize at a village fete lucky dip. Given all that, it'd be a phenomenal situation if Rome never fell. The state's inability to pay its troops increased too. The Northern War didn't end in a complete Russian victory with Russia annexing everything past mainland Sweden. Steel was known to the Romans, and sooner or later they must have realised that making tools from it instead of just weapons, would increase agricultural productivity, and architecture would develop faster for its use in tools, cranes, and girders. I know this is finicky but Russian Empire, not Tsardom of Russia. What if The German empire never fell after WW1 What if after ww1 instead of disoving the German Empire say the allies allow it to exist. Half the empire's population and those of its neighbors, around 290 million, perish. What if their ancient elemental powers still quietly thrummed through the land? Each office is decided by a small closed election, a bit like the way the Pope is chosen from a group of cardinals. What if the Roman Empire never fell and the Caesar ruled London? The Tsardom of Russia ceased to exist during the reign of Peter the Great. – popular memes on the site ifunny.co That's the basic theory, anyway. In Peru they extract tribute from the Chavin culture. Originally published in All About History, no. What if the Roman Empire Never Fell? Let's also not forget that the Eastern Empire continued until the 15th century. That's very important, as is keeping the army properly paid. The rail network gradually expands to all frontiers. It boasts a rich history of warring and prosperity. More powerful engines of war, including firearms, might well have encouraged emperors to expand the empire's boundaries, bigger wars and extra pressure on state finances and reductions in the overall standard of living. Wouldn’t the Germans take Pomerania during unification? The Roman concept of state was continued for almost a millennia by the Holy Roman Empire, and the Western Roman Empire continued to exist 'on paper' but only as a legal formality. Browse more videos. Valens negotiates, stalling while reinforcements arrive, and wins the battle. Mines in Italy were not large or reliable enough, so instead Rome could stem the amount of silver it exported to India in return for spices, curtailing its taste for luxuries. More posts from the AlternateHistory community, The only alternate history place on the internet, Press J to jump to the feed. The Swedish, somehow make it's way to the modern day with no territorial changes apart from some land on the Polish and German coast. That led to rivals and bloody conflicts. Just click the "Edit page" button at the bottom of the page or learn more in the Company Credits submission guide. Let's also not forget that the Eastern Empire continued until the 15th century. It looks like we don't have any Company Credits for this title yet. Emperor Valens heeds the advice of the cautious Western general Richomer not to attack, instead of the hawkish Eastern general Sebastian who urges the order. But with less of an army and etc. But an enhanced Senate continued to exist for more than a century afterwards. Proudly created with Wix.com, From the end of the 2nd century levels of trade and prosperity fell, never again achieving the levels of the early Principate. All bribery is punishable by the most dreadful forms of execution in the Colosseum. What if someone or something finally unleashed it? So the system crumbled from almost constant civil wars which weakened the empire. What if their ancient elemental powers still quietly thrummed through the land? The blame for this calamity rests with the Emperor Valens (364-378). If he was unwilling to trust anyone else to deal with a distant problem it would be neglected, and the trend towards smaller provinces made it even harder to get things done. Cookies help us deliver our Services. D&D Beyond A surviving Western Empire which had reintegrated with the Eastern Empire might well hold vastly disproportionate influence over human affairs everywhere. One response was to debase the currency. And in South Africa it's seen as the poor, black people's game compared to white man's rugby. Finland the Baltics and Poland all simultaneously have calls Independence movements with the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, Courland, and a Communist Finland Gaining complete Independence with Estonia and Northern Latvia becoming a puppet. Instead of the intelligentsia putting so much effort into Christian religious doctrine and hoarding ancient knowledge in closed monasteries, there is a freer circulation of information that allows engineering to innovate much faster. Nov 29, 2016 - What if the Roman Empire never collapsed and stayed a massive power in not just the ancient world, but today's world? If the british empire had never fell, what would be the best first XI; User Info: kurdt032. By the mid 3rd century, when the empire split into three competing empires and widespread civil unrest massively disrupted the trade network, the degeneration of Imperial finances escalated. In the second half of the 3rd century the silver content of the antonianus fell to only 2%, causing hyperinflation, which had to be dealt with by Aurelian in 271 and 274 by raising taxes and eradicating the bad coinage in Rome and Italy but not the provinces. The Modern day is almost Identical as in OTL apart from a much larger Sweden, and a Much larger Finland, as the USSR still collapses and, as it was annexed, was joined with the karelian SFSR. Instead of being the 'Last True Roman' as he's been called, he might have been the greatest of them all. Each office is decided by a small closed election, a bit like the way the Pope is chosen from a group of cardinals. kurdt032 5 years ago #11. Whilem II (Sorry if I spelled it worng) is kept on the thorne but is a figure head. With British and Irish territory stabilised, Rome trains on Scandinavia and the Ukraine, establishing an arctic frontier across the Baltic states. In California they enslave Native American societies. | NSH. Despite all the negative connotations of being an empire, a surviving, generally non-belligerent Western Roman Empire would in some sense be the model of a well-governed, prosperous, cosmopolitan society, having evolved beyond the strife and economic problems that dogged its early history, exacerbating its actual demise. | NSH. Proudly created with. Sections of this page. To keep the empire stable, a balance would have to be struck between tight, autocratic rule by an elite oligarchy (with no monarchy abhorrent to Roman ideals), intelligent decision making, and the machinations of prestigious, well-connected individuals. What if the Ottoman Empire survived world war one WW1? What if the Ottoman Empire never fell? To prevent continual currency devaluing, Rome would have needed to grow its silver and gold reserves. How possible is it for Rome not to have fallen, what would have to be different? The Goths are assimilated, preventing their plunder throughout Thrace. Majoran uses an enhanced fleet of 65 ships (not 40) to win against the Vandals at the Battle of Cartagena (real timeline 461). 'Never' is the key idea here. It would encompass, and indeed define, most if not the whole of Europe, as well as other parts of the world. Almost all emperors after that time were army officers or imperial officials (stratocracy). The first outing of Minerva's Arrow, a steam engine that runs on rails, is a centrepiece of a year-long festival of art and technology in Rome. Are there any key events that could have stemmed Rome's fall if they went differently? Be the first to contribute! But if the empire is not to fall, ambitions of conquest must be held in check, maintaining the delicate balance of international relations. From the mid 3rd century emperors also wasted time with matters that previously were dealt with by an imperial legate. The ensuing massive cost entails harsh taxes which provoke Empire-wide rioting. The averted, To keep the empire stable, a balance would have to be struck between tight, autocratic rule by an elite oligarchy (with no monarchy abhorrent to Roman ideals), intelligent decision making, and the machinations of prestigious, well-connected individuals. Sweden emerged as a great European power under Axel Oxenstierna and King Gustavus Adolphus. A Roman-Axumite alliance in Northeast Africa prevents the Islamic expansion into North Africa, but loses Mesopotamia to the caliphate powers. Playing next. (Part 2) Report. After three years of deliberation by the new Supreme Consilium, reforms are announced for all offices of the legislature and executive to forever eradicate corruption. It's a logical step for them to build strong diplomatic relations with other empires, the Hunnic, Sassanian, Rashidun, Umayyad, Mongol, and subsequent empires. How might Rome have progressed beyond the 5th century? What if the Celtic thrones fought to survive beyond its walls? In the Mesoamerican scenario, the Romans come up against the Maya, sparking conflicts that the Romans would be hard-pressed to win in harsh jungles, and greatly outnumbered. On the other hand, the cost of this may well be an even more hierarchical and brutal society, with slavery still rooted, and a very harsh law code. Accessibility Help. What If the Roman Empire Never Fell? The expensive civil wars that contributed to the collapse could be averted if Rome had reformed the system by which the emperor was selected after the 3rd century when the senatorial class was marginalised and any connection with the imperial family was sufficient to make a claim. With much more radical reform it might have worked if the Tetrarchy reformed into a Supreme Imperial Office comprising more regional co-emperors, who were chosen only from the Senate. After three years of exploration and conflict in Mesoamerica, Rome establishes trade and diplomatic relations with the Mayans, helping prevent their civilization's collapse. They had no Ikea. One that stands out is the Battle of Adrianople in 378 when Roman forces of the Eastern empire lost some ten thousand lives to the Visigoths under Fritigern in modern Turkey. With a thousand years of super-accelerated progress in all fields of human knowledge at his disposal, Leonardo Da Vinci is born in a suburb of the Florentia-Roma mega-city, the largest on Earth... How would Rome's government be different? It isn't a biography of Charles XII, it is more a book about his wars and how they and his actions brought about the collapse of the Swedish Empire. We're speaking of the Western Empire, which after a long decline symbolically fell in Ravenna in 476. What would the world be like if the Roman Empire never fell. 23. But each group selfishly favoured its own aims and proved reluctant to assist other parts of the empire. © 2016 by Jerry Glover. It's strange that soccer has not taken off across the old empire in the way rugby and cricket have. Press … From the days of Rome it has been renowned as the continuation of the Roman Empire after it's fall in 476 A.D. Many factors would have to go into Rome winning the war against this fresh expansion. As a result of acquiring territories seized from Russia and the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, as well as its involvement in the Thirty Years' War, Sweden found itself transformed into the leader of Protestantism. That led to rivals and bloody conflicts. See also. By the mid 3rd century, when the empire split into three competing empires and widespread civil unrest massively disrupted the trade network, the degeneration of Imperial finances escalated. Would the world as a whole be more or less technologically advanced? What if the Roman Empire Never Fell? The principle of steam power was already known to the ancient Greeks. Roman legions, consisting of Mayan warriors too, march to the gold regions of Peru and California, returning to Rome with spoils that make the treasure of the Temple of Jerusalem look like a prize at a village fete lucky dip. Difficult! level 2. During negotiations, premature attack broke out from the Roman side, and Valens allowed this to force his hand, ordering a general attack that spiralled into a disaster, including his own death. They said the Swedish Empire fell in 1721 OH REALLY. : Part 1 (2013) Plot Keywords. This gave the Goths free rein in Thrace and Dacia, a major instigator of the process that led to the fall of the Western Empire. In the second half of the 3rd century the silver content of the, In the 600s the new religion of Islam gallops out of Arabia, and Muslim armies began a war against both the Romans and the, Grain ships carrying bubonic plague from Egypt sink in a storm before reaching Constantinople. Jump to. Rome expands into sub-Saharan Africa. Essential items such as weapons, clothing, and food became part of soldiers pay, and much trade took place without currency. If he was unwilling to trust anyone else to deal with a distant problem it would be neglected, and the trend towards smaller provinces made it even harder to get things done. The state's inability to pay its troops increased too. Excellent cartography and astronomy borrowed from Persia is key to making this possible. If the Romans had cottoned onto the possibilities of that, combined with iron and steel it's feasible they could have invented the steam engine, hence locomotives, revolutionising long-distance transport, a rail network spanning the empire. In certain areas I suggest it would be a lot more advanced, provided there's no stagnation of scientific enquiry that happened in Europe across Late Antiquity. What If the Roman Empire Never Fell? Just click the "Edit page" button at the bottom of the page or learn more in the Plot Keywords submission guide. Not being able to capitulate them country situated between the Balkans and Asia Minor to have fallen, would! 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End in a storm before reaching Constantinople let 's also not forget that the Empire.